[SystemSafety] Spanish train crash

[Matthew Squair]

Interesting that we try to design hard technology systems to meet hazardous
failure rates of 10E-9/hr yet the same systems are operated by humans who
can at best achieve failure rates several orders of magnitude larger.

Can anyone shed any light as to whether the section of track at which the
accident occurred also corresponds to an organisational interface?

On Tuesday, 30 July 2013, wrote:

>
> Chris,
>
> That was the point I was making, even following the application of
> "technology" to Morpeth Curve (albeit a fairly crude AWS warning), there
> were still derailments.
>
> At Southall AWS and ATP were both fitted, but turned off at the time of
> the accident.
>
> At Ladbroke Grove, the train that passed the red signal had not been
> fitted with ATP, but the HST approaching had (albeit having passed any
> measures that may have applied the brakes).
>
> At Wembley there was a accident with a suburban unit running into the rear
> of a freightliner train as a result of repetitive cancelling on the AWS
> (AWS only discriminates between green and "not green")
>
> Regardless of technology, it is the human and degraded modes that must be
> considered in all system designs.
>
> Cheers
>
> Peter
> (Speaking for himself)
>
> Peter Sheppard
> Senior Safety Engineer and Validator
>
> Mobile: +44 7920 247931
>
>
> Please consider the environment before you print / Merci de penser à
> l'environnement avant d'imprimer / Bitte denken Sie an die Umwelt bevor Sie
> drucken
>
> Bombardier Transportation UK Ltd
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>
>
>
>
> *"Chris Dale" <chris.dale at scsc.org.uk <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'chris.dale at scsc.org.uk');>>*
> Sent by: systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de');>
> 29/07/2013 16:38
> To
> <systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de');>>
> cc
>   Subject
> Re: [SystemSafety] Spanish train crash
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you, Peter.
>
> Surely the lesson of the Morpeth derailments is that speed limits on tight
> curves need to be enforced technologically, not merely procedurally by the
> imposition of speed limits.
>
> According to Prof. Roger Kemp of Lancaster University, quoted by MSN, the
> accident in Spain occurred on a section of ‘half completed’ track that was
> still being brought up to date with the safety standards of the European
> Rail Traffic Management System, which would have prevented the train from
> exceeding the speed on the section of track. *
> http://news.uk.msn.com/world/why-spains-horror-train-crash-cant-happen-in-the-uk569032
> *<http://news.uk.msn.com/world/why-spains-horror-train-crash-cant-happen-in-the-uk569032>
>
> If this is true, the driver should not be the only one under investigation.
>
> Chris Dale
> (also speaking for himself only)
>
> *From:* systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de');> [mailto:
> systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de <javascript:_e({},
> 'cvml', 'systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de');>] *On
> Behalf Of *peter.sheppard at uk.transport.bombardier.com <javascript:_e({},
> 'cvml', 'peter.sheppard at uk.transport.bombardier.com');>*
> Sent:* 29 July 2013 13:35*
> To:* systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de <javascript:_e({},
> 'cvml', 'systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de');>*
> Subject:* Re: [SystemSafety] Spanish train crash
>
>
> I have just one comment - "Morpeth" 1969, 1984, 1994!
>
> Cheers
>
> Peter
> (Speaking on behalf of himself only)
>
> Peter Sheppard
> Senior Safety Engineer and Validator
>
> Mobile: +44 7920 247931
>
>
> Please consider the environment before you print / Merci de penser à
> l'environnement avant d'imprimer / Bitte denken Sie an die Umwelt bevor Sie
> drucken
>
> Bombardier Transportation UK Ltd
> Registered Office: Litchurch Lane, Derby, DE24 8AD, England
> TEL +44 1332 344666, FAX +44 1332 266271
> Registered in England
> Registration No. 2235994
>
>
>
> *
> "Chris Dale" <**chris.dale at scsc.org.uk* <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'chris.dale at scsc.org.uk');>*>*
> Sent by: *systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de*<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de');>
> 29/07/2013 12:41
>   To
> <*systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de* <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de');>>
> cc
>   Subject
> Re: [SystemSafety] Spanish train crash
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> PBL wrote:
>
> > 11. I read in the Observer (Sunday paper of the Guardian group) that the
> driver
> > has been arrested, arraigned in handcuffs before a judge, and charged
> with
> > multiple manslaughter.
> >
> > That is, of course, an excellent way to ensure that investigators (of any
> kind)
> > obtain minimal useful information about any human factors at play in this
> > accident. Indeed, the article reports that he has received legal advice
> not to
> > make a statement to police.
>
> Hear, hear!
>
> If some technological failure caused the accident, we need to know.
>
> If some technology misled, confused or distracted the driver at a critical
> moment, we need to know.
>
> If some technology that should have intervened was absent, switched off, or
> otherwise ineffective, we need to know.
>
> The (seemingly) media-led frenzy to find someone to blame is an obstacle to
> the prevention of future accidents. Even if the technology is not at fault,
> we should still be asking what would lead an experienced, well-qualified
> driver to act (or not act) in the way he did. Then we have a chance of
> improving things. We won't if the 'blame game' takes priority.
>
> Chris Dale
> Safety-Critical Systems Club Meetings Co-ordinator
> *
> **chris.dale at scsc.org.uk* <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'chris.dale at scsc.org.uk');>
> Tel: +44 (0)1326 565758
> Mobile: +44 (0)7904 056507*
> **www.scsc.org.uk* <http://www.scsc.org.uk/>
>
> Director
> Dale Research Ltd
> 2 Reppersfield Row, Breage, Helston TR13 9PG
> Registered in England and Wales no: 4937941
>
>
>
>
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