[SystemSafety] A Fire Code for Software?

[Steve Tockey]

All,
Things apparently get more complicated in the US. PE supervision / sealing
is only required when ³public health, safety, or welfare² is at risk. So
public works projects like roads, bridges, public buildings, etc. do
require a PE. Other work is covered under something called the ³Industrial
Exemption², which means that the company is liable, not the engineer. So
most companies in the US that do ³engineering² (term used advisedly) work
are not required to have a PE on staff who seals designs.



Bill Mostia wrote:
³One big issue might be whether software development and implementation is
³real² engineering²

As far as I am concerned, as it is commonly practiced today it¹s not even
close to real engineering. That¹s not to say that it could not be in the
future, it is just clearly not today.



‹ steve




-----Original Message-----
From: systemsafety <systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
on behalf of "W.L. Mostia" <wlmostia at msn.com>
Date: Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 6:25 PM
To: Peter Bernard Ladkin <ladkin at rvs.uni-bielefeld.de>,
"systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de"
<systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] A Fire Code for Software?

PBL - I fully agree with what you are saying.  One small issue that may
not change things in practical terms.  Engineering under the engineering
laws is required to be directly done by the PE or directly supervised by
the PE.  Obviously work can be done within a company without this
happening but if the PE's stamp is on the work (or even if the client did
not require a stamp), they are still on the hook.  One big issue might be
whether software development and implementation is "real" engineering.


William (Bill) L. Mostia, Jr. PE
ISA Fellow, FS Eng. (TUV Rheinland)
WLM Engineering Co.
281-728-3722

-----Original Message-----
From: systemsafety <systemsafety-bounces at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de>
On Behalf Of Peter Bernard Ladkin
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2018 5:00 AM
To: systemsafety at lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de
Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] A Fire Code for Software?



On 2018-03-13 04:48 , W.L. Mostia wrote:
> " From what Bill Mostia described, the solution seems obvious. Everyone
>should get all their software engineered in Texas."
> 
> I never proposed that what Texas was doing was "the solution" to the
>issue of producing high quality and safe software but rather what Texas
>is doing in this regard.

Sorry, Bill, I didn't mean to put words into your mouth.

> Whether licensing of software engineer will result in improved
> software design is a controversial subject,

Yes, it is.

Licencing is one social move, and all such moves occur in a complex social
context. Part of that context, by analogy with other technical licencing
schemes, is that ultimately only one SE at a SW firm would need to be
licenced. If things went badly wrong then that SE could theoretically be
held responsible, sanctioned, and the firm could hire another one - things
would not necessarily have changed engineering-culturally at all. One can
even argue that that is essentially what happens at the moment.

Another move could be holding SW and SW-based-kit supply companies more
accountable for deficits in their products. But the question of assigning
responsibility for such a deficit is already fiendishly complicated,
because of the complexity of the supply chain. It might just result in
expanded legal departments everywhere, along with ensuing price rise to
pay for them.

I don't think the question of getting everyone to use more reliable
development methods for SW is an easy one. Neither do I think it will be
the solution to the "SW problem". Requirements engineering poses
challenges that are at least as big, and to my mind less susceptible to
pro forma solution.

PBL

Prof. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany MoreInCommon Je suis Charlie
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