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<div>Bertrand,</div>
<div>That might very well be true. However it is the case that such liability already exists for virtually every other product or service available in the modern world:</div>
<div>— automobile</div>
<div>— airline flight, and other commercial or public transport</div>
<div>— electronics, including computer hardware</div>
<div>— kitchen appliance</div>
<div>— food</div>
<div>— etc.</div>
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<div>We don’t seem to complain about higher prices there, do we? Why not? Because those suppliers use reliable practices that vastly reduce the likelihood of them delivering crap. So their risk exposure is significantly lower.</div>
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<div>If it were not even possible to deliver—affordably—much more highly reliable software, then I wouldn’t be complaining. But that’s my whole point: it IS possible to deliver—affordably—much more highly reliable software but there is zero incentive on the
part of those highly-paid-amateur programmers to change. They will only ever change when they see an external incentive. Like being forced to take on liability for damages.</div>
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<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>"RICQUE Bertrand (SAFRAN ELECTRONICS & DEFENSE)" <<a href="mailto:bertrand.ricque@safrangroup.com">bertrand.ricque@safrangroup.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Monday, April 26, 2021 at 11:43 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>Steve Tockey <<a href="mailto:Steve.Tockey@construx.com">Steve.Tockey@construx.com</a>>, Peter Bernard Ladkin <<a href="mailto:ladkin@causalis.com">ladkin@causalis.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Cc: </span>"<a href="mailto:systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de">systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de">systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>RE: [SystemSafety] Post Office Horizon System<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Answer to your final question is : because it would be more expensive.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">RESTRICTED<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#525668">Bertrand RICQUE</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#525668"><br>
Safety and security standardisation Expert<br>
Customer Support Manager<br>
Optronics and Defence Division/Customer Support <br>
Safran Electronics & Defense <br>
<br>
P +33 (0)1 58 11 96 82 </span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif;color:#525668">�</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#525668"> M +33 (0)6 87 47 84 64
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#525668"><a href="mailto:bertrand.ricque@safrangroup.com"><span lang="EN-US" style="text-decoration:none">bertrand.ricque@safrangroup.com</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#525668"><br>
102 Avenue de Paris<br>
91300 MASSY FRANCE <br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><a href="http://www.safran-electronics-defense.com/?utm_source=signmail&utm_medium=mailpro&utm_campaign=signmailEN"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#525668;text-decoration:none">www.safran-electronics-defense.com</span></b></a></span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#525668">
<span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> systemsafety <<a href="mailto:systemsafety-bounces@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de">systemsafety-bounces@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de</a>>
<b>De la part de</b> Steve Tockey<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> lundi 26 avril 2021 20:27<br>
<b>À :</b> Peter Bernard Ladkin <<a href="mailto:ladkin@causalis.com">ladkin@causalis.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc :</b> <a href="mailto:systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de">systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> Re: [SystemSafety] Post Office Horizon System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">PBL,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Yes, in this case, there do appear to be a lot of unanswered questions before the root cause(s) is fully understood. So we can’t immediately blame the software.
Yet. But the question still remains in the general case: more and more software is being delivered which is leading to material harm to the general public—when will the developers and/or suppliers of such faulty software be held accountable and liable?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Take, for example, the Uber self-driving car that killed Elaine Herzberg. The following is directly from an article summarizing the NTSB report (linked below,underlining
added by me for emphasis):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">- - - - Quote - - - - </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">However, "if the perception system changes the classification of a detected object, the tracking history of that object is no longer considered when generating new trajectories," the NTSB
reports.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">What this meant in practice was that,
<u>because the system couldn't tell what kind of object Herzberg and her bike were, the system acted as though she wasn't moving</u>.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From 5.2 to 4.2 seconds before the crash, the system classified Herzberg as a vehicle and decided that she was "static"—meaning not moving—and hence not likely to travel into the car's path.
A little later, the system recognized that she was moving but predicted that she would stay in her current lane.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">When the system reclassified her as a bicycle 2.6 seconds before impact, the system again predicted that she would stay in her lane—a mistake that's much easier to make if you've thrown
out previous location data. At 1.5 seconds before impact, she became an "unknown" object and was once against classified as "static."</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">It was only at 1.2 seconds before the crash, as she was starting to enter the SUV's lane, that the system realized a crash was imminent.</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">- - - - unquote - - - - </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">In spite of the fact that she was clearly moving WRT the vehicle on a course with constant bearing and decreasing range, they repeatedly re-classified her as static.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">See:
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/arstechnica.com/cars/2019/11/how-terrible-software-design-decisions-led-to-ubers-deadly-2018-crash/__;!!Dl6pPzL6!PnqyufQYjCrDDoWUfTuHWRJSUC1J-YwCUrXhg71A0fSoG_HbsbzQN0qvmfEfx18IXhKG$">
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/11/how-terrible-software-design-decisions-led-to-ubers-deadly-2018-crash/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Or,
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">“<i>The US car company General Motors is recalling more than four million vehicles worldwide due to a software defect linked to at least one death . . . the defect concerns the sensing and diagnostic module.
In rare cases it can go into test mode, meaning airbags will not inflate in a crash.</i>”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">See: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37321361__;!!Dl6pPzL6!PnqyufQYjCrDDoWUfTuHWRJSUC1J-YwCUrXhg71A0fSoG_HbsbzQN0qvmfEfxz5XKjJ4$">http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37321361</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Or,
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">“<i>the current software could result in high temperatures on certain transistors and possibly damage them. When it fails, the error forces the car into failsafe mode. Toyota says that in rare circumstances,
it could even shut the hybrid system down while the car is being driven</i>” </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">See: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.autoblog.com/2014/02/12/toyota-recalling-1-9m-prius-models-globally/__;!!Dl6pPzL6!PnqyufQYjCrDDoWUfTuHWRJSUC1J-YwCUrXhg71A0fSoG_HbsbzQN0qvmfEfx3fTmr25$">http://www.autoblog.com/2014/02/12/toyota-recalling-1-9m-prius-models-globally/</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Or, “<i>The outage was caused by a software coding error in the Colorado facility, and resulted in a loss of 911 service for more than 11 million people for up
to six hours. … Although, fortunately, it appears that no one died as a result, the incident – and the flaws it revealed – is simply unacceptable.</i>”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">See:
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2014/db1017/DOC-330012A1.pdf__;!!Dl6pPzL6!PnqyufQYjCrDDoWUfTuHWRJSUC1J-YwCUrXhg71A0fSoG_HbsbzQN0qvmfEfx7GOjpE7$">
http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2014/db1017/DOC-330012A1.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Or,
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">“<i>A flaw found in a calculator tool used by doctors at GP surgeries has potentially led to a number of patients being erroneously prescribed or denied statins across England. … Due to the unidentified
error in the code, it's possible that the risk of CVD was overstated … This could—in turn—have led to mistakes in prescriptions for statins</i>”.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">See <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/arstechnica.co.uk/security/2016/05/bug-in-gp-heart-risk-calculatortool-__;!!Dl6pPzL6!PnqyufQYjCrDDoWUfTuHWRJSUC1J-YwCUrXhg71A0fSoG_HbsbzQN0qvmfEfxy-Tt6Fi$">
http://arstechnica.co.uk/security/2016/05/bug-in-gp-heart-risk-calculatortool-</a>tpp/</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Or,
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">“<i>More than 3,000 inmates in Washington state prisons were released early because of a software bug. The glitch caused the computer system to miscalculate the sentence reduction inmates received for good behavior,
according to a press statement from the state governor’s office.</i>”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">See: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.techinsider.io/washington-prisons-software-glitch-2015-12__;!!Dl6pPzL6!PnqyufQYjCrDDoWUfTuHWRJSUC1J-YwCUrXhg71A0fSoG_HbsbzQN0qvmfEfx86rLGtG$">http://www.techinsider.io/washington-prisons-software-glitch-2015-12</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Or,
</span><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">“<i>The causes of the National Air Traffic Services (NATS) flight control centre system failure in December 2014 that affected 65,000 passengers directly and up to 230,000 indirectly have been revealed in
a recently published report … How could an error not tolerated in undergraduate-level programming homework enter software developed by professionals over a decade
<u>at a cost approaching a billion pounds</u>?</i>”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">See: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/theconversation.com/air-traffic-control-failure-shows-we-need-a-better-approach-to-programming-__;!!Dl6pPzL6!PnqyufQYjCrDDoWUfTuHWRJSUC1J-YwCUrXhg71A0fSoG_HbsbzQN0qvmfEfx644VqeN$">https://theconversation.com/air-traffic-control-failure-shows-we-need-a-better-approach-to-programming-</a>42496</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I could, of course go on.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">There is an organization here in the US called NSPE (National Society of Professional Engineers). From their web site, quote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">“<i>Creating a world where the public can be confident that engineering decisions affecting their lives are made by qualified and ethically accountable professionals.</i>”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">See: <a href="https://www.nspe.org/">https://www.nspe.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Also from their web site, quote (emphasis theirs):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">“<i>NSPE was established in 1934 to realize a simple but vital goal: create an
<b>inclusive, nontechnical</b> organization dedicated to the interests of licensed professional engineers,
<b>regardless of practice area</b>, that would protect engineers (and the public) from unqualified practitioners, build
<b>public recognition</b> for the profession, and <b>stand against unethical practices and inadequate compensation.</b></i>”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">See: <a href="https://www.nspe.org/membership/nspe-who-we-are-and-what-we-do">https://www.nspe.org/membership/nspe-who-we-are-and-what-we-do</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Why aren’t organizations like NSPE up in arms over all of the developed-by-highly-paid-amateurs software that is clearly putting the health, safety, and welfare
of the public at significant risk? Like I said, until those that are directly causing material damage get held liable and accountable for their mistakes, we can only expect that nothing will change.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">— steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">From: Peter Bernard Ladkin <<a href="mailto:ladkin@causalis.com">ladkin@causalis.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Organization: RVS Bielefeld and Causalis<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Date: Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 12:30 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">To: Steve Tockey <<a href="mailto:Steve.Tockey@construx.com">Steve.Tockey@construx.com</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Cc: "<a href="mailto:systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de">systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de">systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de</a>><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] Post Office Horizon System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">On 2021-04-24 04:17 , Steve Tockey wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0cm" id="MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I’m wondering why nobody seems to be considering holding the programmers who wrote
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">that code accountable. > Why aren’t those programmers sent to jail for equal time they caused the falsely<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">> accused? Why don’t those programmers have to pay the reimbursements?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Because they are not the people who wrote the contracts which stated that
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">subpostmasters were liable
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">to make good any branch bookkeeping shortfall, no matter how that shortfall may have happened. And
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">they are not the people who indulged in the abuse of process category 2 that sent people who jail
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">and ruined the livelihood of others. In both cases that would be the company legal department,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">wouldn't it?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Had the subpostmaster contracts been different, and the company legal department not been as
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">aggressive towards their contractors, this might well have been just another complex distributed
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">system which took five to ten in-service years to debug. Unsatisfactory UK government or
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">government-backed large IT projects are not an unknown phenomenon in the UK. Trying to push all the
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">failures onto the users, and succeeding (until late 2019), is, however, unprecedented.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0cm" id="MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">As long as programmers who write crap code like that are not held accountable
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">for their obvious failures, why would anybody even hope for anything to
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">change
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0cm" id="MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">in how software is developed?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I don't think anybody knows at this stage that the code itself was unusually poor for such a system,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">or, if so, why. The system itself was apparently described in a report prepared by the system
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">auditors Second Sight in 2013 as, in some cases "not fit for purpose". But the system was/is a lot
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">more than the code. As Michael Jackson has pointed out, there are all sorts of HW and devices
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">involved. Unless all those interfaces are well understood and monitored (and the traces recorded),
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">there are all kinds of things that can go wrong that are not necessarily caused by poor programming.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">For example, consider phantom transactions. How did those happen? People suspect touch screens that
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">were physically not reliable, and recorded "touches" that never happened.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">To figure out that such
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">things are possible, one needs close cooperation, and transparency, between hardware supplier and
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">system architects, as well as knowledge of the HW product that may not yet exist, especially if it
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">is new. How can you attribute any of that to programming? You need good post hoc error logging and
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">traceability down to the fault. That is a company process, not a programming speciality.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Such a large system needs good technical oversight during development. Ensuring such oversight is a
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">task for organisational theorists and auditing specialists, not for programmers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Finally, before the system was deployed, in 1999, the government stopped the pilot project after
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">£700m pounds had been spent on it. It is not as if everything went swimmingly until deployment. It
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">is an issue of management and mismanagement of an exceptionally complex IT project. It is not a
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">matter for the IT supplier and its employees/subcontractors alone.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0cm" id="MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Leave the taxpayers out of it. They (we) are completely innocent. Hang those programmers—and their employer—out to dry. That will teach them. For once.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Many people involved feel that the supplier (ICL/Fujitsu) was not the main issue. The behaviour of
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">the client, Post Office Limited, was much more at issue (see above). That
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">entity went through many
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">organisational iterations during the time frame of Horizon and, in its current iteration, has
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">admitted it cannot shoulder the liability arising from the agreed compensation. So in that sense it
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">has already "hung [itself] out to dry."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">However, public-facing Post Offices and the services they offer are socially far too important for
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">the daily life of millions of people in the UK for POL just to stop doing
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">business. It doesn't just
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">offer the public-facing services of post/parcel, but is also a channel for many social insurance
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">transactions (benefits payments and so on) and other government transactions (e.g., road vehicle tax
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">payment and receipt). It is too important to just stop all that, to fail.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">There are various suggestions out there as to how to avoid such disasters. Where there are clear
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">interfaces, log the transaction-data items which pass through the interfaces. This has been done
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">with common Internet services since the beginning. Every mail server has a log of what has gone
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">through it and the handshaking that transpired. It is a matter of a few minutes for a sysadmin to
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">tell you what happened to your email. Stuff like that is a matter for system design, though, not
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">programming per se. Another suggestion is strict liability for harm (including financial loss)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">resulting through use of such a SW system. Such a regime would surely have caused Horizon system
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">development to cease in 1999, if not before. But Horizon sort of now works. Would the UK really have
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">been better off without it for the last twenty years? Not necessarily. But certainly the country
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">would have been a lot better off without the aggressive attempts to blame
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">the users for all
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">problems, as the court of appeal established yesterday.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I imagine there are books and books and books full of lessons to be learned over the 25-year history
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">of this system. But they won't be written because of non-disclosure contracts and proprietary
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">interests (including those of the state), as well as the personal interests of some formerly "key
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">players". A public inquiry might manoeuvre around some of these hindrances, but will necessarily
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">stop short of anything which might point towards malfeasance or culpable negligence of individuals,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">unless there is a general amnesty.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">PBL<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Prof. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">ClaireTheWhiteRabbit RIP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319 <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.rvs-bi.de__;!!Dl6pPzL6!PnqyufQYjCrDDoWUfTuHWRJSUC1J-YwCUrXhg71A0fSoG_HbsbzQN0qvmfEfx5xxyS_A$">www.rvs-bi.de</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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