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PBL wrote:</div>
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“<i>One possible outcome of the Horizon case is that the notion of strict liability for software is being given a serious airing. The liability is not at the level of individuals but at the level of the developing organisation.</i>”</div>
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Of course I am no expert in law, but my understanding is that here in the USA by default the corporation assumes liability. I think it’s called the “Industrial Exemption”. On the other hand, and this was my maybe-too-subtle point earlier, NSPE and the state
licensing boards are supposed to be watchdogs that <u>require</u> licensed (I.e., chartered) engineers to “seal” work products on ALL projects that put the health, safety, and welfare of the general public at risk. In “sealing” those work products, that licensed
engineer is taking on personal liability. Large amounts of software are clearly putting the health, safety, and welfare of the general public at significant risk and yet NSPE and the state licensing boards are (or, at least appear to be) at best moving on
geologic time scales.</div>
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At least 10 of US states do offer a professional licensing route for Software Engineering, but it is not required for work on what should easily be considered critical projects:</div>
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<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Alabama</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Delaware</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Florida</span></div>
<div><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">New Mexico</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">New York</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">Michigan</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">Missouri</font></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">North Carolina</span></div>
<div><font face="Calibri,sans-serif">Texas</font></div>
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<span style="font-size: medium;">Virginia</span></div>
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<i>“Requirements specification is an unsolved engineering problem, and is likely to remain so for quite a while (if not for ever).”</i></div>
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I would disagree, personally. Software requirements can be specified precisely, concisely, etc.</div>
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<div><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">”Software systems are often used outside of formal requirements. . . . </i><font face="Calibri,sans-serif"><i>Suppose someone uses that product outside those formally over-strict
requirements. Developer points the finger at user, and, with a good legal department, wins in court.</i></font><i style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">”</i></div>
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This is not a problem that’s at all unique to software. Ridiculous product warning labels abound:</div>
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“Not for internal consumption” on a wire coat hanger.</div>
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“Do not use while sleeping” on a hair dryer.</div>
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“Do not put any person in this washer” on a clothes washing machine.</div>
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“This product is not intended for use as a dental drill” on a Dremel electric tool.</div>
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“Do not hold the wrong end of this chainsaw”.</div>
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“The Vanishing Fabric Marker should not be used as a writing instrument for signing checks or any legal documents.”</div>
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And so on.</div>
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<i>“I agree with your examples, of course, especially the one in which you quote me back at myself :-)”</i></div>
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I knew you would—smile.</div>
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— steve</div>
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-----Original Message-----</div>
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From: Peter Bernard Ladkin <<a href="mailto:ladkin@causalis.com">ladkin@causalis.com</a>></div>
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Organization: RVS Bielefeld and Causalis</div>
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Date: Monday, April 26, 2021 at 12:04 PM</div>
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To: Steve Tockey <<a href="mailto:Steve.Tockey@construx.com">Steve.Tockey@construx.com</a>></div>
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Cc: "<a href="mailto:systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de">systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de</a>" <<a href="mailto:systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de">systemsafety@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de</a>></div>
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Subject: Re: [SystemSafety] Post Office Horizon System</div>
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On 2021-04-26 20:26 , Steve Tockey wrote:</div>
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<div>... But the question still remains in </div>
<div>the general case: more and more software is being delivered which is leading to material harm to the
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<div>general public—when will the developers and/or suppliers of such faulty software be held accountable
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<div>and liable?</div>
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One possible outcome of the Horizon case is that the notion of strict liability for software is
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being given a serious airing. The liability is not at the level of individuals but at the level of
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the developing organisation.</div>
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It is going to be hard to relegate a subtle technical problem to the mercy of the courts, though.
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Requirements specification is an unsolved engineering problem, and is likely to remain so for quite
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a while (if not for ever). Software systems are often used outside of formal requirements.</div>
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So introduction of strict liability could lead to the situation in which developers communicate
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formally over-strict requirements on the use of their product. Suppose someone uses that product
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outside those formally over-strict requirements. Developer points the finger at user, and, with a
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good legal department, wins in court.</div>
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Whereas the user might well have been using the system for its intellectually-intended purpose,
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where it failed and caused harm. In circumstances in which there was not strict liability and
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formally over-strict requirements, that might have led to a negotiation in which the developer
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agreed to accept some responsibility for the harm caused.</div>
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I agree with your examples, of course, especially the one in which you quote me back at myself :-)</div>
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PBL</div>
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Prof. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany</div>
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ClaireTheWhiteRabbit RIP</div>
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Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319 www.rvs-bi.de</div>
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