<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:large"><div class="gmail-nH gmail-aHU" style="color:rgb(32,33,36);font-family:"Google Sans",Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:medium"><div class="gmail-nH gmail-hx gmail-aHo" style="background-color:transparent;color:rgb(34,34,34);min-width:592px;padding:0px"><div class="gmail-nH" role="list"><div class="gmail-h7 gmail-ie gmail-nH gmail-oy8Mbf" role="listitem" aria-expanded="true" tabindex="-1" style="clear:both;padding-bottom:0px;max-width:100000px;outline:none"><div class="gmail-Bk" style="margin-bottom:0px;border-width:0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:initial;border-bottom-style:initial;border-left-style:initial;border-top-color:rgb(239,239,239);border-right-color:initial;border-left-color:initial;border-bottom-color:initial;border-radius:0px;float:left;width:910px"><div class="gmail-G3 gmail-G2" style="padding-top:0px;background-color:transparent;border-right:0px;border-bottom:0px rgba(100,121,143,0.12);border-left:0px;border-top:none;border-radius:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-right:0px"><div><div id="gmail-:m2"><div class="gmail-adn gmail-ads" style="border-left:none;padding:0px;display:flex"><div class="gmail-gs" style="margin:0px;padding:0px 0px 20px;width:838px"><div class="gmail-"><div id="gmail-:m5" class="gmail-ii gmail-gt" style="direction:ltr;margin:8px 0px 0px;padding:0px;font-size:0.875rem"><div id="gmail-:m4" class="gmail-a3s gmail-aiL" style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:small;line-height:1.5;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;overflow:hidden">Peter & everyone else,<br><br>I concur in the judgement to shut down the list, but I write separately because my opinion on the state of things differs a bit from Peter's. Specifically, I think quite a few years have passed since this list consistently saw anything resembling legitimate debates. As GK Chesterton famously wrote, "People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." For at least 15 years there have been far more quarrels on this list than good arguments. The occasional vigorous debates have often been overshadowed by the more frequent instances of talking past one another, spewing marketing pitches, making thinly veiled (if veiled at all) abusive ad hominem attacks, and generally disagreeing disagreeably*. I believe the list is rarely used because of *that* specific state of things, not because of a more general lack of desire for true debate. Nevertheless, I agree that shutting the list down is the best course of action.<br><br>Kind regards,<br>cMh<br><br>* To my shame, I've done a bit of that stuff myself occasionally. Well, never marketing pitches. I have never stooped that low. :-)<br><br>C. Michael Holloway<br>Safety-Critical Avionics Systems Branch<br>NASA Langley Research Center since 1983<br><a href="https://go.nasa.gov/2QxruhD" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://go.nasa.gov/2QxruhD</a> <<a href="https://shemesh.larc.nasa.gov/people/cmh/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://shemesh.larc.nasa.gov/people/cmh/</a>><br><br><br><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: systemsafety <<a href="mailto:systemsafety-bounces@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de" target="_blank">systemsafety-bounces@lists.techfak.uni-bielefeld.de</a>> on behalf of Peter Bernard Ladkin <<a href="mailto:ladkin@causalis.com" target="_blank">ladkin@causalis.com</a>><br>Organization: RVS Bielefeld and Causalis<br>Date: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 5:18 PM<br>To: The System Safety List <<a href="mailto:systemsafety@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de" target="_blank">systemsafety@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de</a>><br>Subject: [EXTERNAL] [SystemSafety] State of Things<br><br> Folks,<br><br> The Safety-Critical Mailing list started at Uni York on 19th May, 1995<br> <a href="https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabnormaldistribution.org%2Findex.php%2F2010%2F04%2F07%2Fengineering-discussions-of-discussions-the-york-list-after-15-years%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cc.michael.holloway%40nasa.gov%7Cae19b5c3a3be4e58586a08dad8a106d5%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7C0%7C638060483378470459%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bKPFuu8lAQuNMkJ0CpygNb9gc9ACVoAVXtWNdpi64CM%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fabnormaldistribution.org%2Findex.php%2F2010%2F04%2F07%2Fengineering-discussions-of-discussions-the-york-list-after-15-years%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cc.michael.holloway%40nasa.gov%7Cae19b5c3a3be4e58586a08dad8a106d5%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7C0%7C638060483378470459%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=bKPFuu8lAQuNMkJ0CpygNb9gc9ACVoAVXtWNdpi64CM%3D&reserved=0</a><br><br><br> In my memory, there was extensive discussion of approaches to system safety, involving in particular<br> the IEC standard 61508 on functional safety of equipment involving digital components. Rich, and<br> rewarding.<br><br> In summer of 2012, Uni York in moved to IT services provided by Google, and suddenly many<br> participants of the York mailing list were unable further to participate, due to their company<br> protocols. My group at the Uni Bielefeld reacted: Jan Sanders set up a mailing list using Mailman in<br> my faculty IT-admin and we invited anyone from the York list to join. Many did.<br><br> Discussion about system safety continued.<br><br> Recently, there have been many important themes in digital-sytem safety that have come to the fore.<br> The revision of IEC 61508, a huge topic of discussion in the earlier years of the York list. The use<br> of machine-learning SW in autonomous road vehicles and other safety-critical applications.<br> Cybersecurity considerations about safety-critical systems and their resolution (if there is one).<br><br> None of these subjects has attracted much recent debate on the System Safety List. There may be many<br> reasons for this, but one, I think, is that people just don't seriously debate on mailing lists any<br> more.<br><br> The list is maintained through the good auspices of Michael Götting, head of the Bielefeld<br> University Faculty of Technology IT services, Sascha Frey, and Christian Lange. All of these good<br> and devoted people have much to work on (TechFak digital traffic is half of all traffic at UniBI,<br> which supports over 20K students and myriad research groups).<br><br> I don't wish to burden my colleagues any longer with maintaining a list that is barely used. I<br> propose to close the list on 2022-12-31.<br><br> I regret this development. I am firmly convinced that active open discussion is the best way to<br> progress system safety, and the main practical way of enabling active open discussion is through<br> email mailing lists. It seems this view is now "so 1990's". So be it. Maybe we should all move to<br> TikTok.<br><br> I thank all contributors and listeners. It's been good, for a long while. 27+ years is not a bad run.<br><br> Best wishes to all,<br><br> PBL<br><br> Prof. i.R. Dr. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany<br> Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319 <a href="https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rvs-bi.de%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cc.michael.holloway%40nasa.gov%7Cae19b5c3a3be4e58586a08dad8a106d5%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7C0%7C638060483378470459%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4gpGMO1MAd5Zi%2FPcU2NIEwQZF6kK%2F7XKanbP%2F54aciw%3D&reserved=0" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rvs-bi.de%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cc.michael.holloway%40nasa.gov%7Cae19b5c3a3be4e58586a08dad8a106d5%7C7005d45845be48ae8140d43da96dd17b%7C0%7C0%7C638060483378470459%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4gpGMO1MAd5Zi%2FPcU2NIEwQZF6kK%2F7XKanbP%2F54aciw%3D&reserved=0</a><div class="gmail-yj6qo"></div><div class="gmail-adL"><br><br><br><br><br><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail-hi" style="border-bottom-left-radius:1px;border-bottom-right-radius:1px;padding:0px;width:auto;background:rgb(242,242,242);margin:0px"></div></div></div><div class="gmail-ajx" style="clear:both"></div></div><div class="gmail-gA gmail-gt gmail-acV" style="font-size:0.875rem;padding:0px;width:auto;border-bottom-left-radius:0px;border-bottom-right-radius:0px;border-top:none;margin:0px;background:transparent"><div class="gmail-gB gmail-xu" style="border-top:0px;padding:0px"><div class="gmail-ip gmail-iq" style="clear:both;margin:0px;padding:16px 0px;border-top:none"><div id="gmail-:m6"><table class="gmail-cf gmail-wS" role="presentation" style="border-collapse:collapse"><tbody><tr><td class="gmail-amq" style="padding:0px 16px;vertical-align:top;width:44px"><img id="gmail-:kz_0" name=":kz" src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a/AEdFTp6TB9gg2WVlJ0PfKZd9ZK1-DgX-9NLrbhNEGDA-CGc=s80-p" class="gmail-ajn gmail-bofPge" style="display: block; 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<br>
The Safety-Critical Mailing list started at Uni York on 19th May, 1995 <br>
<a href="https://abnormaldistribution.org/index.php/2010/04/07/engineering-discussions-of-discussions-the-york-list-after-15-years/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://abnormaldistribution.org/index.php/2010/04/07/engineering-discussions-of-discussions-the-york-list-after-15-years/</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
In my memory, there was extensive discussion of approaches to system safety, involving in particular <br>
the IEC standard 61508 on functional safety of equipment involving digital components. Rich, and <br>
rewarding.<br>
<br>
In summer of 2012, Uni York in moved to IT services provided by Google, and suddenly many <br>
participants of the York mailing list were unable further to participate, due to their company <br>
protocols. My group at the Uni Bielefeld reacted: Jan Sanders set up a mailing list using Mailman in <br>
my faculty IT-admin and we invited anyone from the York list to join. Many did.<br>
<br>
Discussion about system safety continued.<br>
<br>
Recently, there have been many important themes in digital-sytem safety that have come to the fore. <br>
The revision of IEC 61508, a huge topic of discussion in the earlier years of the York list. The use <br>
of machine-learning SW in autonomous road vehicles and other safety-critical applications. <br>
Cybersecurity considerations about safety-critical systems and their resolution (if there is one).<br>
<br>
None of these subjects has attracted much recent debate on the System Safety List. There may be many <br>
reasons for this, but one, I think, is that people just don't seriously debate on mailing lists any <br>
more.<br>
<br>
The list is maintained through the good auspices of Michael Götting, head of the Bielefeld <br>
University Faculty of Technology IT services, Sascha Frey, and Christian Lange. All of these good <br>
and devoted people have much to work on (TechFak digital traffic is half of all traffic at UniBI, <br>
which supports over 20K students and myriad research groups).<br>
<br>
I don't wish to burden my colleagues any longer with maintaining a list that is barely used. I <br>
propose to close the list on 2022-12-31.<br>
<br>
I regret this development. I am firmly convinced that active open discussion is the best way to <br>
progress system safety, and the main practical way of enabling active open discussion is through <br>
email mailing lists. It seems this view is now "so 1990's". So be it. Maybe we should all move to <br>
TikTok.<br>
<br>
I thank all contributors and listeners. It's been good, for a long while. 27+ years is not a bad run.<br>
<br>
Best wishes to all,<br>
<br>
PBL<br>
<br>
Prof. i.R. Dr. Peter Bernard Ladkin, Bielefeld, Germany<br>
Tel+msg +49 (0)521 880 7319 <a href="http://www.rvs-bi.de" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.rvs-bi.de</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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